Dean Treanor: "Considering the US Constitution is shorter and that of India is so much longer, more detailed,how does it impact the constitutional interpretation of these two courts?'
CJI: "Whether Indian or American Constitution, the spirit is the same. The object of 'We, the people of the country' must abide by the rule of law and ultimately, the public, people's view is sovereign. Now we have to respect the people's view and ultimately we have to take the actions of the executive and the legislature in the judicial review process and ultimately we will uphold the constitutional values. You are aware of the major judgment in Indian constitutional law of Kesavananda Bharati, which prescribes the limit of the legislature as well as the executive in relation to the judiciary. The theory of basic structure was introduced and thereafter we are following the logic and reasoning of the judgment over a period of years. This is how we interpret the laws and the actions of the executive. There is a clear-cut separation of powers- three organs of the Constitution, we have marked clearly the roles of the institutions- the legislature, the executive and the judiciary. So I think there is no problem of interpreting any of the issues"
Justice Breyer: "The basic values, whether the constitution is long or short, those values are there. You see in both the Constitutions that they include the values of equality, basic human rights such as free speech and free press, rule of law. And we both have the same problem that we are not elected people, that we live in a Constitution and under a system where what prevails is democracy. So how do we protect the basic values where a majority of the people want to hurt them? Where is our job and where is the job of the Congress? We have a short constitution and the answer I suspect is no easier when you have a long constitution. Justice Black used to say, 'Just read the words. It says congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. It is no law- that is easy- it means no law'. The response was that it is not the words 'no law' which cause the problem, the question is what is the proper interpretation of the freedom of speech. It doesn't mean I can go out and say 'let us all rob a bank'. On the other hand, there is political speech. How do we draw the line and where do we do it? That is why it is important to pay attention to what these other courts, with the same kinds of problems, do for protecting those values. We don't have to follow it but we can learn from it"
Justice Breyer: "You don't know in advance what you are going to learn when you start talking to judges of other countries. In 2001, we went to Gujarat- Ahmedabad. One of the judges in Ahmedabad showed me a building, with a big wooden porch and a line of women, a queue which went on endlessly into the streets. I asked 'what is that'. The judge said we have set up a system here for women in this area, when they have something to complain about, maybe their husbands are hitting them or maybe their in-laws kept some of the money belonging to them- there were all kinds of problems that were happening. Inside the room, there is a psychologist, there is a lawyer, there is a social worker and they would explain their problem and figure out how to help them- it might be going to the police, it might be pursuing a law case, but it focuses on those individual problems of those women. And they like it- that is why there was a big queue. I had a picture of that in my office for five years. People would ask me what that is and I would explain it. I ended by saying 'we have a system like that here, don't we?' I thought by saying that and by explaining that, they would learn something which would be helpful"
Dean Treanor: "Higher judiciary in India has innovated quite a few interpretative tools in the spirit of a welfare Constitution. One noteworthy tool is the development of public interest litigation jurisdiction. As I understand, it allows public spirited people to advocate for redress- whether of violation of fundamental rights, deficiencies in education and healthcare or other serious problems- and they can do so in order to advance the larger public interest without strict compliance of locus requirements. In contemporary Indian democracy, how relevant is such jurisdiction?"
CJI: "The public interest litigation jurisdiction was an innovation of the Indian judiciary, particularly the Supreme Court. It is plainly meant for the marginalised people who cannot approach the courts, to engage advocates to espouse their cause. The idea is to promote access to justice. You know that initially, it started with that a postcard or a letter is enough to raise a cause in public interest. Necessarily, the court looked beyond the locus standi to uphold the public interest, to relax that locus standi business. Due to the proactive approach of the Supreme Court, the PIL became a tool of empowerment. It generated awareness about the rights of the people. Apart from that, the Supreme Court is closely monitoring various issues through PILs- For example, the environmental issue, long pending criminal cases against elected public representatives, protection of human rights. A continuous mandamus, we are issuing. The PIL has prevented Cross abuse of the executive power and check the corruption at some levels and also sought accountability. Of course, I agree that it has some limitations. The Supreme Court and High Courts also impose certain restrictions on the misuse of this public interest litigation. But overall, if you look at the whole scenario, it is more encouraging and positive. PIL is basically a tool and it is an instrument to uphold the civil rights and to take care of the needs of the people who belong to the oppressed classes. It has, to some extent, successfully achieved its object and now it is an integral part of the system. Public interest litigation issues are also there to some extent, but there are a number of judgments where we have regulated the frivolous filing of this public interest litigation and we are harsh towards those people who want to settle scores or misuse the PIL jurisdiction"
Dean Treanor to the CJI: "You have been advocating for the creation of a statutory body for infrastructure for the judiciary at all levels and for filling of vacancies on an urgent basis. Would you please elaborate on how this measure will substantially improve the delivery of justice in India?"
CJI: "From the position of an advocate, I have been noticing the very poor condition of the courts in particularly rural areas, because I practised from magistrate court to the Supreme Court at all levels. And judicial infrastructure in India remains one of the most neglected areas. After the British left the country- for the courts constructed by the British- subsequently, for one reason or the other, we have not modernised the courts. This is the subject which is on my priority list. After assuming the Chief Justice office, I requested my Registry to conduct a study to know the condition of the courts. In the interest of increasing access to justice, I had to urgently take up this issue. I sent a report to the government of India to create an infrastructure corporation at national level as well as state level, because the pandemic has shown that modern technology has to be a technical part of the infrastructure. Now we need good technology and infrastructure and to carry out the dignity and respect of the court also. My proposed independent statutory authority at two levels takes care of the problem of infrastructure. Because such authority must have functional and financial autonomy. It would ensure timely implementation of the modernisation of the project. By the end of this month April, we are holding a conference at Delhi with all the chief justices of the states as well as the chief ministers of the states and the hon'ble Prime Minister and law minister is also participating in that conference. I hope it will take a shape. The reason is that the client, the litigant public, the lawyers, the judicial officers should work in a good environment. So the judges will be good. That is the reason why I have taken up this project as a priority project"
Dean Treanor to the CJI: "An aspect of the Indian judicial system is the legal aid system. India has the largest legal aid service under your patronage. Is there a statutory basis of this or is it totally voluntary? What is your advice to the rest of the world in this regard?"
CJI: "Our Constitution guarantees equal access to justice. We have the legal services authorities act. Now we have a statutory legal services authority both at the central level as well as the state level. The legal services authorities provide their wide range of services, they conduct legal awareness camps, provide ADR facilities, other facilities of counsel in both civil and criminal matters. Through these authorities, the legal aid is now available for more than 80% of the Indian population. We have around 45,000 paralegal volunteers, nearly 5000 legal service clinics all over the country. Our experience is that this area is very encouraging. The pre-litigation settlement and mediation resulted in the reduction of number of cases coming to the court. Providing legal aid to the undertrials is another significant contribution of these authorities. We have legal service clinics in jails as well as those which provide assistance to the undertrials and convicts. The Indian legal service model can be replicated anywhere, particularly in the developing countries. This is a very successful enactment and movement. Legal aid movement is very popular in this country- because of poverty and other reasons, the people who are unable to approach the courts, engage lawyers or spend money, that has been taken care of by the government. It is a great success. It is headed by our patron in chief and the second judge of the Supreme Court is the chairman of the central committee. At the state level, the chief Justice and his next judge are incharges of these committees. There are committees up to the village level committees to provide legal help"
Dean Treanor: "What are your views on educating international LLM students in the US? How should we be educating our international students? How can our students return home and initiate the bottom up grassroot changes in the society that currently do not observe democratic values such as freedom of speech, separation of powers, checks and balances etc?"
Justice Breyer: "I cannot write a curriculum for you, but it is important but. A model for me is the ERASMUS programme in Europe- where students might spend a year or so in different countries. It is not going to be all spending it in the US or, for that matter, in India. Go a different country, see how the people live, see what the legal system is like. You don't know in advance how you can help. Life has a way of coming and offering opportunities of helping people achieve better life and if you get such an opportunity, good, take it. But your job is primarily to teach them the law, the respect for law, what is the rule of law and what it isn't in that country that you happen to be teaching"
CJI: "I welcome this learning in a different land, different country, exposing yourself to different culture, different system of teaching is a good experience for an upcoming lawyer particularly. This exposure in education will help a lot. It is to a benefit. Every country should encourage and sponsor this education. It is holistic learning. Learning is never confined to classroom. So if you come to India or we come to America, a lot of exchange will take place, apart from that we will understand the systems, we can contribute a lot, if we learn something over there we can come and work here. Senior Advocate Vibha Datta Makhija, who is also a student of your university, is contributing a lot to Indian legal system. She insisted that we must have this conversation. Different cultural activities, values, teachings, it is a wonderful thing for us to learn. Our registrar is also from your university. These people are working wonderfully and helping me in administration"
Dean Treanor: "Why is abortion so politicised in the United States and not India?"
CJI: "Abortion is not a major issue in our country. The reason is that normally the Indian population, particularly our marriage system, is altogether different. People expect that after marriage, the consent of husband...or to lead the family life, if there is any difficulty in conceiving child or delivery of the child, these issues can be in consultation with the family. The issues of sex before marriage and other issues are not that serious in our country. These are all negligible instances where we can look into it. That is why the right of abortion is not that focussed an issue in India...But in India, there are regulations to stop acts of female foeticide and apart from that, there is a balancing act of right to life of a child versus the right of the mother. The autonomy of the body of the female is important"
Justice Breyer: "That is a question you should ask a political person. They would have a more sophisticated answer than me. The only thing I can contribute is- I did write an opinion- the question before us is not whether abortion is a good thing or a bad thing, there will be difference of opinions of people on that. But the question is what kind of law is there in a nation which has a large number of people feeling differently about a question like that. It is not about moral rights or moral wrong.